#ChristianStraightTalk

#Christian Straight Talk - Hope

• Simon Pinchbeck \ Reverend Ben Cooper • Season 1 • Episode 12

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Reverend Benjamin Cooper talking with Simon Pinchbeck, former Police Officer to Criminal talking about hope.

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Reverend Ben Cooper:

Hello and welcome to our podcast here at Elim church in Swanley you're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper and Simon Pinchbeck. This morning. We are so glad he has traveled all the way from sunny Essex. He bought the rain with him today. It's so lovely to have you with us. He don't live in Essex do i do

Simon Pinchbeck:

live in Essex? Yeah. Right on the borders of Hertfordshire. But I've been in Essex for since 1986. So a few years. Yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

So good to have you with us today. And we, you know, we're doing our podcast sitting around a cup of coffee. We normally do two of them back to back. But I thank God for Simon's life. He's a good friend of mine. And he's just so real. You know. And what's interesting about these podcasts we do nothing's, there's no editing going on. There's no fancy software, cleaning it all up. It is just raw, it is real. It's two gazes. two cases,

Simon Pinchbeck:

just having a chat, just Jesus Christ. And

Reverend Ben Cooper:

we really, and that's the most important to understand, you know, and you know what, being real, finding someone that you can be real with is so good. And not having to perform.

Simon Pinchbeck:

And it's I think it's vital when you're Chris. Yeah, well, Ben, seriously, you know, we we all want to sometimes we want to put out this face or that face, but yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Don't worry, when you're tired. You know what you've ever been like? This journey of Christianity is a funny old game in it. You know, to find out game Yeah. You're like, the church. You have to put like your church. teefin Yep. Everything's quite remember that. Yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Vica with the camera,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

the camera, right? Yeah. Yeah. So typically, you gotta like come in a church and you got your wife and your kids and you everything's good. Everything's good. And everything's wonderful.

Simon Pinchbeck:

And so really tired. You speak to someone and go, Oh, you Mike. I'm great. I'm blessed. I'm blessed. And I'm

Reverend Ben Cooper:

five hours this week. I'm so blessed. You know what the kids have been nagging me. I'm so blessed. Lord. I so great. It's been trouble everywhere. But I am blessed

Simon Pinchbeck:

you it? Yeah. Let's, let's get real.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

And fed up.

Simon Pinchbeck:

That's all real jazz. It's

Reverend Ben Cooper:

tough.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Chris,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

come on. Let's be real. We're in the second wave of lockdown. lockdown. Can you find it interesting when you travel today? We're in national lockdown.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Yeah, but we're as busy as we ever was. Everything raises busy. I don't know. I honestly I'm confused with it all. I just feel feel for them. And people in hospitality I feel for the small Yeah, the cup of coffee shop. I just feel for them guys, you know, just at a time when they're coming into a second. Yeah. You know, they've they've weathered the first one. Yes. They've used up all the savings on everything that the government has. Yeah. They put scroungers taken tables out

Reverend Ben Cooper:

loans out borrowed money to keep things moving, just

Simon Pinchbeck:

just getting themselves back.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Yeah, in some form of routine longer. Not really locked down is it?

Simon Pinchbeck:

It's not well, it's equal to restaurants and

Reverend Ben Cooper:

it's a lockdown for one one area one area

Simon Pinchbeck:

that's all

Reverend Ben Cooper:

but the rest of the rest of the nation is fundraising.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Everything else is carrying.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

I get stuck in traffic, but we're in lockdown. And you can't work out and you

Simon Pinchbeck:

don't understand it. I can understand and

Reverend Ben Cooper:

it's I find it mentally draining because I'm hearing and looking. So my ears are picking up across the media lockdown lockdown lockdown lockdown lockdown keep the distance keep the distance it's all there measures which are right and true yeah we do what we got to do there and all that very respectful of that but the My eyes are picking up something completely different to what I'm hearing

Simon Pinchbeck:

when we're not you know just before I popped came down here I went into the local as the store alone and yeah we've got legal masks on but no one's really bothered about socially dispensaries busy oh no queues very busy no queues is even been busier in the book is next door to not

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Yeah, busy Yeah,

Simon Pinchbeck:

it's just it's people have just gone we've had enough Yeah, we've had enough we're in all that staying in all that stuff. I know we've done everything you've asked us to do. And you still asking us to do more?

Reverend Ben Cooper:

We got to do more but what more can we do? Is he gonna win where's he going around and then we said to ourselves I need hope.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Well that brings us on to a great so check me hope Lord cuz the thing is all everything that you put your hope in yes now been shaken and

Reverend Ben Cooper:

it has everything now everything. So when we say everything I put my hope in its material when I put my whole life and every white everything upon business, upon the culture upon a system, or put everything in that, but I don't realize that I'm doing that. Because you're hurting in a way. Yeah. You're programmed. You're pushed to the sun in the raging.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Yes. And especially not in the UK especially so from a young age. It's Yeah, it's you used to be this way too. Yeah. Yeah, go up. Yeah. Yeah, get married. Yeah, kids get a mortgage get a house. Hey, could must have a house. They'll have a house. That's the thing. And with that comes the trappings of, oh, have a nice car. You gotta have your holiday. Yeah, that's where, you know, I lived like that for 46 years. Yeah, you know, so I lived in that in that world for 46 years. Yes. And all my hope was in his in was in the house. I had the bricks and mortar amateurs that gone up each year. My two week holiday in Florida, that that was my own boss. Looking forward to that. Yeah, my hope was in the job. I was in at a savings that got the the big screen TV that I was going to get. That was my hope. The hope was in my football club. What was they doing? I hope was in might Yes. What would I doing at school? My hope was in in my wife in her job. My hope was in me. Yeah. My hope was in me. So that was where the hope was in self in self. We've

Reverend Ben Cooper:

got to be so careful anyway, not to I don't think it's intentional. I don't think we don't tend to do it. But there's this pattern. The Bible makes it very clear. don't conform to the pattern of this world. But have your minds renewed? I can't follow the pattern. So what you've just spoken about that is a clear pattern of

Simon Pinchbeck:

every house. Every house and what all it what it is. It's about the stuff that Yeah, you can control. Yeah. Now this pandemic or pandemic or whatever, yeah, whatever you want to call it. Whatever is happened is shaken. That

Reverend Ben Cooper:

is not it

Simon Pinchbeck:

is not because all of a sudden, you can't control it. You can't control it. So then yeah, what's your pension doing? Well, yeah, what's

Reverend Ben Cooper:

going on your pension, then put your stop never have credit. You start you get furloughed you lost 20%. So suddenly, you're living because everybody, don't get me wrong at one listening, but it seems to be that whatever money you get, you always seem to be at spending and over and above. So you get in his lifestyle,

Simon Pinchbeck:

you have to your linens, you lift

Reverend Ben Cooper:

your knees to the max, and then suddenly something happens. You got card, I put it on a credit card and this that and yeah, you know, and I've lived that world I know that's like the painful world of all that sort of stuff. And then you know, and then you get in debt and you can't sleep. And then you become agitated you become fed up. And then suddenly you become a robot a slave to Pharaoh baking bread all day. Wow, I'm baking breaks

Simon Pinchbeck:

the great cigarette analogy. But um, yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

I'm on the pharaoh because as I look across the platform of what we got out there, our friends and all that the system is fairer. It has no harm. It wants you to conform to conform to it. So I'll put my hope in everything it has said. And the model is said and I trusted that because it is of a It looks good it looks a try it's the way society

Simon Pinchbeck:

so so I want to conform to society. I don't want to be a rebel or golf grade. I don't want to go off I want to stay on my stream and that's so that's the way it is. And you know, we've even got that in churches been and and it's it's criminal. It's it's real criminal what some churches and and some pastors have sold to their, to their flock.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

They said the word sold.

Simon Pinchbeck:

they've sold it sold it. they've sold a happy life with a happy Jesus and a soft compromised gospel. That's what that's what I've saw. Yeah. So you put put your trust in that. Put your hope in that. Yes, you can believe in all of those scriptures because our script is all about you.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Yeah. You can easily within moments get a lot of Scripture together. That makes you feel good. And make you think do you know what? Oh, this is? I'm a super human.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Yeah, these churches bind to that

Reverend Ben Cooper:

because I'm a I'm a superhero. God, I am. I've got everything that Devers under my feet. I'm blessed and highly favored and blessed

Simon Pinchbeck:

to be brave

Reverend Ben Cooper:

and my God shall supply all my needs. Yes, no one that mentioned the respite according to his riches in glory, I'll leave that bit offload because, you know, it talks about needs once but then say if there is a very fine line of being a believer and not getting caught in the system of world. But because culture and and I've done I don't know if this is the right thing to say but what I've seen over the years is the world as influenced the church, rather than the church as influenced and shaped the world.

Simon Pinchbeck:

That's absolutely true. What's what they've done? They've been the world to win the World. Yeah. So and the problem is they've become corporations. So you've got CEOs now run around churches, yeah. And then attracting people on a lie, which is, which is that? It's all about you. And and the Bible is all about you. And he said, and everything in there is all about you. So you're suddenly you're building this faith on a prosperity base, and it's on sand,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

the sunshine, the storm and the wind blew, and beat against that.

Simon Pinchbeck:

So now we're in this pandemic. Oh, you know, and all of a sudden, all that stuff.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

It's crashing

Simon Pinchbeck:

I'm seeing my job not earning as much as I did. I've seen a moment I homeschool my kids my life's going all all over the place the

Reverend Ben Cooper:

NHS is stretched to the maximum finance that the debt of that nation is plummeting with no no return on everything I put my

Simon Pinchbeck:

hope in

Reverend Ben Cooper:

is crashing is crashing.

Simon Pinchbeck:

And even this Jesus that I've been told, who's this amazing Santa Claus Jesus is gonna give me everything yeah and around anymore. Where's he gone?

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Yeah. He Where is he? Where are you? Where are you lot. And we need to be really careful as believers because what's happened is pandemic has come in like a flood. It has rocked the world of his access. It has flattened all systems businesses, it has shaken everything right away to the core. So where I have been in a worldly church or worldly systematic church or worldly flow of religion when something when your own mortality is staring you in the face and everything that you put weight in crashes I know we said this before, but you've got the ministries out there that are telling you that you're going to be held cancer prosperity gospels, the faith healers, the name it and the climate and all that does a sharp

Simon Pinchbeck:

does a shot and

Reverend Ben Cooper:

and that's rocked,

Simon Pinchbeck:

as we said before, you know, the the healing rooms in a Bethel Church in Redding, California, closed closed because of illness.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

So it's so there's confusion. Yeah, I've got confusion from the government. Of what that tell me. One department is telling me this, of the um, so we got departments of the world, in conflict with each other, then we have what we would say the church that we may have looked up to, rightly or wrongly, whatever, but we all want to believe in that healing because you know, healing. Wow, that's a miracle your heal, but suddenly, you can come out to us, you can come to this. We'll teach you over 12 weeks and after we finished this course, you're being evangelists, Simon, and then after you've done that course, you can go to that college over there and then you'll be a faith healer cost a few quid for 10 grand Yeah, cuz Yeah, yeah. So what but then suddenly, before the pandemic, all this is going on? Yeah, I think my and what, and what happens is, someone might go, you know what, I think I might be called to that because it looks good. It looks good. Then the wave of a wave comes in and crashes down. Like a tsunami. There was like a big you know, the tsunamis were big drawing back. Because that's what I see. There's a big drawing back for years and years and years, just quietness. But then suddenly, this tsunami has come in and has crashed on the world and has caused devastation in the rain falls on the just, and the unjust. So all my hope has been smashed.

Simon Pinchbeck:

If that's where your heart was, he's been smashed, actually. And there's a is a this is on the on the internet. You can see this very clearly, in 2021, early in 21 or 2021. There's going to be a big meeting of the globalists meeting in Davos, yes. It's called Davos 2021. They call it they call it the great reset, right? Oh, you know, there's all sorts of things that they're looking to do is a redistribution of wealth, all that sort of stuff. That's what I want is out there on YouTube, if you want to see it, and even Prince Charles is given his name to that, but as a Christian, we've got another reset. We've got another reset as a Christian, where's my hope? As a Christian, my hope is anything Christ and Christ alone.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Praise God.

Simon Pinchbeck:

I love that song in Christ alone. Don't you are loving it? Yes it is. And the first couple of lines of that is in Christ alone. My hope is found all Thank you, Jay. He is my light my straw my son, Lord. Yeah. Beautiful. That. That is. That is where our hope is. It's in Christ and Christ. And if if we submit to Jesus, if we submit to Him, come on, and we don't use him as his genie in a bottle. I've said many times before as our inner world, our inner world, if we submit to Him, then our hope is in the promises of God.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Now, right, that takes me to a scripture. Three times I pleaded with the Lord, take it away from me. He didn't take that. But what he said was My grace is sufficient for you. Yeah. So whatever we go through, no matter how dark and bleak, there is always hope. There's hope. There's hope. But I might have afflictions, but he knows I've got the affliction. So I've got to flip this around. Now, as a man in Christ, I've got to flip from religion to faith

Simon Pinchbeck:

to faith. Yes,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

I've got us from church, Jesus, Jesus, from business to faith, I've got a completely flipped. Now, this pandemic is giving everybody an opportunity to flick over to Christ have to reset.

Simon Pinchbeck:

And and there's another great song that says, My hope is the anchor. So if your hope is in Jesus Christ is now the anchor. He is in the stone. Yeah. So you've got that anchor now, because you've totally submitted you're totally obedient. You know that it's nothing about you. You know, the Bible is not about you,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

isn't it? Just how it was

Simon Pinchbeck:

it? Was Jesus Christ, is it? You're not David and David and Goliath? Do you know, you're not your Giant Slayer? No, oh, you can do nothing with that Jesus Christ when it comes to that place? Yes. Right. Then you can start to believe and take on board those promises of God, which I'll never leave you or forsake. You can Lord, I'll you know, people use Jeremiah 2911. You know, I know the plans I have for you. But here's the deal. 2913 says, I will, you will find me if you seek me with all your heart. So the key that's the key to the heart, people use Psalm 91. And saying that's, that's my protection. But it says if you make the most Lord your most high, yes, so this, you know that you accept the sort of lifting or lift him up, he's got to be number one,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

you got to be number one. And you said st really a word that we've used a few times, submission and surrender, completely handing everything over to him, you know, that we've really got to pray that God will really just draw us closer and closer because what the issue is, is with all the things that are breaking out across the world, and everything that's going on, we got to be careful that when we give the devil a foothold, he can run right in our head.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Well, if you give him a foot we don't want him to make a stronghold in that area, do we? So we need to we need to it's like it's like

Reverend Ben Cooper:

being an arrow and he's asking God Lord make me a sharp Lord so I can so Lord, I can I can punch it through the darkness with you that I will not slam Yeah, I mean, get for I got cut for a bad time about being a warrior. But that that sounds very evangelical, very Pentecostal. You're a warrior for Christ. I'm dressed in the armor, it doesn't mean that it means about holding your place.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Let me tell you been

Reverend Ben Cooper:

hold your place as a warrior for Christ

Simon Pinchbeck:

without hope. There's no fight.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

You can't i can't make

Simon Pinchbeck:

Where is where can you fight without hope? Because all of a sudden, if you've got no hope, if you're, if your life is not anchored in Jesus Christ, if you're not submitted to him, then you're you're floating around like you're you're on the sea. You're being bashed by all the storms and stuff. And, and, you know, I love the analogy of like the palm tree. It's looks the weakest of all trees. But maybe when those hurricanes hit, that palm tree bends down it Benyus, taps,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

adapts,

Simon Pinchbeck:

and the elements and then when the hurricane is gone, it springs back a carpet. That's how we've got to be because our roofs have got to be anchored. Yes, Jesus Christ and our roots if your roots are anchored in Jesus Christ, what, what is the continuing process the continuing process for us is the word of God. Okay? We've got to been slow. We've got to know scanner word. You got to be in the word and being the word in the spirit. So it's a revelation not just instruction. So So It's vital that we know the word of God is vital that we know the promises of God. It's vital that that we're continually submitting to Jesus. And as we said before, if you're under if you submit the Jesus, you're under the shield of Jesus.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Yeah, Lord, thank you, Jesus.

Simon Pinchbeck:

If you're not, if, if you want to do this stuff in your own strength, if you want to do this stuff on out, you'll think you're bigger than this. And yeah, that you're stepping outside the shield, and you're stepping into into unchain waters, you're stepped on that

Reverend Ben Cooper:

I've done that I've done that I've done that, and you're running before to run before the Lord. I've run before many, many, many times. I've been so far. Oh, you know, Lord, I thought I heard a word from you. I thought this, this, this that and that. Suddenly, I realized, get to this. I've got got myself in a cul de sac. Yes, yeah. Self in a cul de sac. Because I've run before the Lord and know

Simon Pinchbeck:

what what what it's then it's fight or flight

Reverend Ben Cooper:

isn't exactly and you're running off. You're drilling, you're running off your own stress. So

Simon Pinchbeck:

you're, you're saying I've got to do more.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

I've got to do more. Do more of this.

Simon Pinchbeck:

I've got to do more. I'm not doing enough. This is this is why I've got to make it work. And Jesus is saying no, he's saying, Come back. I love your heart. But can't back under the shield. Come back under the shield and let's just walk in at rest and walk with me. He doesn't want you running off. All over

Reverend Ben Cooper:

in ice. burn all candles.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Speaking of people at what time at night, taking phone calls in there. No. He wants you to do what he wants you. That's a challenge for me. That is a that is a challenge. He wants you that is to put in Numero Uno. Yes. No. Number one. But he wants you to put your wife next. Yeah, family. Yes. Yeah. And then the ministry gets into

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Yeah, yeah, place after that. But the church puts it upside down, it flips it around, then it and then you suddenly got a an upside down world that you find the light you're swimming up these travelers bend the world

Simon Pinchbeck:

will want more and more of you

Reverend Ben Cooper:

all the time. And then when you can't see, I always think of this, this this picture that I've got in my head where you talk about the water or more view when Christ drew the line in the sand for what that reason was, but when I when I see that line in the sand, I see Christ on one side and a world on the other side. But I don't see any line in the sand anymore between the church and the world. Do you understand what I mean is it's it's molded into one so you're doing worldly things in the church and the world is doing ungodly thing you know, it's it's such a it's like swept in. So what you find yourself in ministry can be doing worldly things, trying to put in a worldly program or worldly business model into the kingdom, which doesn't fit and then you get exhausted. And just because you've got money, doesn't mean to say it's gonna work. But if you've got someone that has been called into ministry, that has got a fair bit of cash, you can do anything to a certain degree

Simon Pinchbeck:

to a certain degree you can you know what i think i think God is using this time to shake this stuff to shake it or to shake this worldly stuff. And he's bringing people back to he wants them to come back he wants he wants Christians to reset to the cross.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

We got complicated

Simon Pinchbeck:

the default for a Christian is the cross of Christ. Yes.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

All the time back to the cross back we got to come back to the cross back to

Simon Pinchbeck:

the cross and and we've got to be following Jesus, we've got to lay our lives down again. We've got to do what Galatians 227 we got be crucified Christ the ACE day so it's not a longer unit live but Christ that lives in Christ lives in me. He lives in you and you are in Christ. Christ alone. And so all the other stuff that's that's that's gone on where you know they've been they've tried to be the world to win the World yet that doesn't work because the world Yeah, is looking for Christians now with peace. who were at peace The world is looking for people who are at peace, because look at him. Now he's everything's going bonkers around him. But he's, he's got peace. What is that about you? When I got? I've got my Fife and rock. I've got hope in Jesus Christ. This is where I'm at. I know that this is only temporary. I know this is temporary. I know that a stop gap I know this is stopped. I know that this is a dark night but there's going to be bright skies out there. I know I'm walking with with unbelieving that was that Jesus said because Because of Jesus because of what he's done for me,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

praise God.

Simon Pinchbeck:

So that's people looking for something the world is looking for something different. Because it was looking for more of the same. Christian has run around in fear and doubt.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Yeah,

Simon Pinchbeck:

well, what's the point

Reverend Ben Cooper:

that he's had to deal with the fear? And the doubt, isn't it that that's, that's that's the thing, but where the religious church and all that stuff hasn't taught how to live in a crisis trouble, where as what you said early on, is all about lights glitz and glamour on a show, and look good in the feel good factor and emotional sort of stuff. It doesn't, it hasn't, from what I can see. It hasn't taught believers how to live in the valley of the shadow of death, how to apply your faith, how to hold on to the Word of God. Now it's a very shallow it's a very shallow message. It's a very core message.

Simon Pinchbeck:

And And the thing is, look at the early church group. Yeah, it grew by people. Believers disciple in each other. Yeah. And then other people going on. I like what they're about. Yeah. And then then those people being discipled, to move on and to multiply. And that's how it grew. Yes. So what's happening now, I believe, I believe you're gonna start seeing smaller churches. Definitely.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Yeah. But I've got our blinders on to we're just gathering in a park,

Simon Pinchbeck:

we've got we're gonna start seeing deliverance, you're gonna start seeing people come to faith, we're gonna start seeing Helios within

Reverend Ben Cooper:

all within a small group.

Simon Pinchbeck:

And I believe that that's the way that we can as as, as soldiers in the kingdom, we can, we can take ground, we can we can hold ground.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

That's correct. Yeah. And you talking about discipleship? You know, we've got to be really careful how we look at that word in the water the church because everyone wants to tile and then it straight away comes us. Who's your Who's your mentor? Who's your spiritual father, who's your who's the one that you look to, we got to be very careful that the Christ is always the one we we we go to, we got to be very, very careful. And there's that word that's been bouncing around for so long. Oh, I'm gonna say my spiritual director. Do you know what I mean? We've got to be careful of them type of titles that we don't take it away from the true understanding of the early church, that they encouraged each other. We encouraged each other because one of them wasn't greater than the other one.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Otherwise, you know, that we know. men out there that other guys will go. Yeah, but did you hear what he said?

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Exactly. That's what we got to be careful.

Simon Pinchbeck:

What he said. What did Jesus say? Jesus say, yeah, cuz he said, you may say about everything, read the red stuff. And above. He said it about everything. And then that then we've got though, great, young people like Paul, James Peter, who said amazing things. In this, the Word of God

Reverend Ben Cooper:

got it in the word, we've got it in another thank God for the disciples and our discipleship courses and all that. But we have to be really careful that we don't again, get cold. In another bit of literature that has come together by man, we've got great men and women that that are real, real skilled in educators and all that and delivering staffing, and the business model side of things. But above that, I have to go to Jesus,

Simon Pinchbeck:

you got to go to Jesus. Listen, Proverbs 2717 got it right. It's it's iron sharpens iron is one man shop. And, and that's great, because we need met each other ages to encourage each other, we need each other to be able to go to, to tell people about what's going on in our lives to bring stuff out in the open. Yeah, as it says in James 516, to you know, to confess to one another, so that you will be healed, but it's got all come to the battle across it has. And Jesus has got to be first and foremost. And you've got to be speaking constantly to Jesus and the Holy Spirit to convict you of this stuff. Yeah. And that's the key to all of this is communication with the Lord through prayer, communication through the Lord, communication with Jesus let them lead you to the Father yet fruit fruit through prayer so that you've got that constant communication going, Yeah. Then all of a sudden, you've got a relationship going? Yeah. And there's the hope. And that's the thing that is the best is because, because when all the other stuffs coming, yeah, you know what the truth is?

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Yeah, you know what is right? He is always Christ centered. It has to be, and we have to be so careful of if we keep going to another human being over more over than we go to Christ. Yeah, we've got great men and women out there that are gifted in many colons and all that, but, but I think that what we've had over the years is we've used these tools You've got bishops, pastors, over pastors, you got different hierarchy systems been put in place and all that, when if I'm just going to keep going to that human being more than I'm going to Christ, we got to be careful of the spiritual director, the title got to be careful of the he's a pastor of pastors, he, he's the one to go to, they're the ones to go to, I've got to see that man, I've got to see that woman because they're a prophet, they're an apostle with the labels have been taken out of the New Testament and put and even labels have been made up that don't even exist scripturally put on people. And we put in too much weight on another human being, rather than coming. So coming to Christ, so suddenly, when something happens, and I put my hope in that, and that hasn't worked. I'll get a crushing feeling but he will never leave me nor forsake me. So my hope is in my God,

Simon Pinchbeck:

what is the thing you know, you put your put your hope or trust in any human being, they're gonna let you down? I will. I will let everybody down. We'll all make mistakes. I will let people down you know, we will own when we should tell me why vow we won't contact people when we should do we won't give the right advice. I will say there are live so go through Yeah, ma'am. At some steps. But there's the thing you know that that putting that hope and trust in the Word of God and that relationship with Jesus Christ is seeking Him? And it's people say, you know, seek the face of God what a face of God is Jesus Christ? Yes. So seek Jesus a word, he'll lead you to the Father cow, fruit of word. And no matter what comes against you, you know that that and we know and we'll be speaking to people out there they'll be listening to this though there'll be actually on their on their knees. Yeah, they'll be in the darkest hour. They know that Christian

Reverend Ben Cooper:

but financially in debt up to their eyes are Christian losing their job? Yeah. petrified. A Christian going through divorce. A Christian addicted to porn, a Christian addicted to gambling a Christian addicted to secret things. A Christian Yeah, but the church hasn't allowed us to express that. Because it's all theatrical performances when we need to be real we

Simon Pinchbeck:

got to be real you know that they got to be real church should be a place for broken people. It's not museum for for for amazing people. Look at that better. Look at that. He's got it all going on. No, no, we come we come to a place of brokenness. But when we know that our trust and our roots and our you know, our rock is in Jesus Christ, first of all, yeah, we probably wouldn't be getting into debt in the first place.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

No,

Simon Pinchbeck:

because we would not be putting our trust and open material things. I know we've got Christmas coming up. But But racket back that's what you get. That's what you gotta do.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

But the thing is, the church has told it says it very clearly, for a number of years. Christ has told me if you put so 1000 pound into this ministry, pot costs your bread upon the waters watch its return we've had these Telly evangelists we've had these churches these prosperity churches where where it is teaching you that money becomes

Simon Pinchbeck:

Rosa life,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

lifestyle so people it's it's such an unusual teaching when you really think about the prosperity gospel that the name and climate and the wealth and the world is doing that as well. So it's so easy to fall into the trap of money. It

Simon Pinchbeck:

Jesus says he's the why the life and the truth it has

Reverend Ben Cooper:

it very clearly

Simon Pinchbeck:

is the way to live and the truth. No one comes to the Father except through him. So so he is the guy. Jesus is the is the role model. He is the one to follow is the one to give your life to completely Submit. And when tough times come, man, you'll be hanging on because you'll be hanging on to the words and the promises and you know that around the corner so when when other other people in these dark times will give up. Yeah. And go into deep pits of depression and whatever you'll be hanging on come on, you'll have the peace knowing yet knowing that you know because you have that relationship with Jesus and your breakthrough come my hope is a breakthrough. Come by hanging on and submitting totally to Jesus Christ. It has been under that shield Anything else? It can't you're in trouble

Reverend Ben Cooper:

you're in trouble. So here's here's the deal is quite simple is that I just getting the word are getting the word but they're not gonna And then the word, but then the attacks come, because the Bible says The just shall live by faith. So my faith is going completely opposite to my eyesight, my eyesight, and my ears, my natural perception or engaging of what the natural world is doing. So suddenly, I start to get in this word of God, I start to trust in Him. So let's just take a scenario. We've got a family that are believers that they've been in and out of church, and they you know, and all that sort of stuff that's going on. They've got a credit card, they've got this, they got that and they've been living, they've been caught into this culture. It comes a point when you've got to say, you know what, I'm going to go by faith. But the bills don't stop coming in the relentlessness of work the mortgage, don't stop this and that. So there comes a point when you've got to put everything in Christ and go, God, I'm gonna trust you are bitten off more than I've got more plates spinning at the moment. I'm gonna leave this job in London, because it's a good hire. But I relived to that, which then has taken my time from you because and my time for my family. So they come in a point for a lot of people where it's going to have to be, Lord, you got to trim back. You're the gardener. Yes, I'm

Simon Pinchbeck:

gonna go by Yeah, you know, you is common sense in all as common sense as well, Ben, but, you know, that's a wilderness time that maybe we're coming into, and a lot of us have come into this area. Well, you know, God is looking at you during that time. This is a time of testing, it's an uncomfortable time. And believe me, that the Lord is looking at your attitude during that time. Now, if your attitude is, where are you calling we know is our well you know, yeah, then you'll stay in that is I'm afraid you'll stay in that you'll stay in that. But if your attitude is, is, is getting on your knees every morning in front and on your face in front of the Lord, even if you're crying your eyes out saying Lord, you know, I need you I want you Yeah, then your attitude will determine your attitude Come on. So if you come in with the right attitude, which is which is submission to Jesus Christ, then the Lord will put you through that and you believe in the promises and you believe in the hope that that's that that's out there

Reverend Ben Cooper:

because I so what we're saying for for real men for Christ for men that that are going through real hardships at the moment is we just keep following Jesus and there might be a minute they're going you know what guys? I am following Jesus I am will keep going,

Simon Pinchbeck:

keep going keep going. Pressing harder

Reverend Ben Cooper:

I keep pressing in order you can never you can never press in enough

Simon Pinchbeck:

what I'd say is as you said before, things are looking good because things looking bad and and if you're using this time, you know in a time of a blessing at a time of prosperity in a time of where things are going great. You may not give as much time to law but if you're using this time to do seek the face of the law which is Jesus Christ if you're using to secure more if you're using to get on your knees more if you're using to to establish that personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Yeah, and then to therefore be using that then you're going to come out as empower

Reverend Ben Cooper:

praise God and and also we we can set ourselves well how do I build on that relationship is every moment of my day isn't it whether I'm walking I'm out walking the dog I'm out with the kids my wife my family wherever I may it's just communicating with him Yeah, driving stuck in traffic just speaking.

Simon Pinchbeck:

That's totally what you've just said. It's It's It's not a big two hour prayer now meeting it's a journey it's a little thank you Father for thank

Reverend Ben Cooper:

you Jesus.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Thank you for looking for this

Reverend Ben Cooper:

yeah

Simon Pinchbeck:

for the the bright sparks in whatever that's right. Whatever is happening because you know, he's he's in control of it all.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

That's right flying around London and you're part of and dropping things off a scaffold or or wherever you are whatever you're doing just going God I thank you today. I'm tired today help me Jesus. I just had a restless night. It's this conversation is sitting in a traffic jam going Lord just give me strength I've got it we're meeting today help me father get one today. Watch my that's a big one for me today. Lord, bless me. It's just making

Simon Pinchbeck:

peace today. Yeah, and just constantly going and then as well, you know, if you've slipped up confessing our confession, sorry. Sorry.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

are often in my mouth come out of that line. Help

Simon Pinchbeck:

me Lord, help me look help me load but that relationship you'll use, you'll start you'll have that you'll get in the car and Jesus will be in the driving seat.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

It sounds like you know, he's when you're working. You're following him. You're trusting him. that's a that's a tough thing too though. Isn't it is Is to it's easy following Jesus when everything is smelling beautiful. Yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck:

And we're gonna talk more about that. And then the second Yeah, yeah, we're gonna do

Reverend Ben Cooper:

well our guys on there.

Simon Pinchbeck:

But remember, you know, john 15 five, Jesus is the vine, were grafted into the vine. So we're grafted into Jesus. And as he said, you can do nothing apart from me.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Oh, God, come on,

Simon Pinchbeck:

so we can do nothing apart from him. Why? Because he's done it all. For us.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

It's done everything john 316 For God so loved the world, that he gave His one and only begotten Son that whosoever shall believe. See, it's not performance is it? And it's whosoever Yeah, who and I don't have in the Gar, who so ever

Simon Pinchbeck:

it don't. It's not the person putting the flowers out in churches. Wherever you are

Reverend Ben Cooper:

in prison, in hospital, wherever your sick bed wherever you are. So what a great powerful word that is. It covers all humanity. Yeah, that one word, Whosoever shall believe. Yeah, it doesn't talk about performance, does it?

Simon Pinchbeck:

No. And this is, this is no. It's belief a deal with that? Is it this is a hot thing. Yeah. So you believe in your heart? Yes. And Express with your mouth. Yeah, in the Bible, then you shall be saved. So whoever believes

Reverend Ben Cooper:

without, well,

Simon Pinchbeck:

it's not about whoever's doing this. For me, whoever's doing that. Whoever's just shut them up on a on a wave of emotion nights, you got a firmly believe,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

and it's forever. It's not a promise. That's amazing. Promise, Whosoever shall believe. And how many times does Christ addressed with the disciples in the New Testament? Where's your faith? When he says when he said, Jarvis. Jarvis is a child, he's dead, the, the, his family that the members of his house, the scripture says, In the New Testament comes out to Jairus and says, done Baba the teacher anymore. And then Scripture says that Jesus overhears that conversation. Don't bother the teacher anymore. She's gone. She's dead. And then Jesus leans in and goes, don't worry. Just believe. That is so beautiful. Don't worry. Jarvis. Just believes

Simon Pinchbeck:

Really? Yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

But then we go on to faith, belief and faith run so close together. So Jairus is in this situation a man in Christ is hearing from his house. Your daughter is dead don't bother anymore. It's finished. But then Jesus leans in and says the opposite to the house and that is so true to church and everything. Jesus says it's not over.

Simon Pinchbeck:

It's not over. It's not over Lord rightwards in my

Reverend Ben Cooper:

natural understanding my eyes and my ears are picking up that she's gone. But now my God is telling me, don't be afraid to address is that one thing straightaway? Fear. Don't be afraid. Ben. Don't be afraid. It's not over. And that's a big

Simon Pinchbeck:

thing. believe these days? Yeah. Fear and unbelief.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck:

And really, the Lord hates that. He does because it's, there's no there's no hope or trust in him know that. And if you've if you've got that relationship that we've been talking about the one that you every single day that you're you're establishing your strengthening Yeah, you're keeping that relationship going as you as you talk to Jesus in in in small soundbites. Yeah. And he wants to be involved in every single thing. Ah, come on, Lord. He wants to be involved in every single thing in your life, even the small things why because everything sported God in everything, everything. The biggest thing in your life is smarter. God is a great and we have you know, it's it's been said many times, but we have a huge God.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

He can't I can't understand that I I cannot grasp the enormity and the power and how great he is. And I can't grasp that because I am just

Simon Pinchbeck:

so is the way

Reverend Ben Cooper:

I am I'm just a man. I know who I am. But I'm just I can't His ways are higher than

Simon Pinchbeck:

my way once we've once we've committed ourselves to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Yeah. Don't tell God our bigger problems is the problem of big economies.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Yeah,

Simon Pinchbeck:

that's right. Come on. Because so that you know, because we can, you know, once you have committed yourself to do so then you can start to believe those promises that you can do all things through Christ. Yeah. Why? Because of Christ because of what he's done for you. Not through you. Yeah. For anything that you've done nothing but because of what Jesus Christ has done. You can then get beyond that shield of faith. And you can walk through stuff. And you can walk through that wall, you can, we can do that, because you're beyond Jesus,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

he's already put you to fly, he's already he put you to fly on your journey, there is no storm, there is nothing in our pathway or is upon us. Now, there is nothing that is called God by surprise. No, everything that happens is for a reason of the season, for the strengthening or the testing of my faith, whatever it may be, there is nothing in my life or your life, or whoever's life that is outside of God's eyesight. He's not gone, or didn't say I'm coming. He sees everything. He sees everything. He sees my decisions that are years down the line, he knows what Avenue where I'm going to get caught with things, I'm going to the right things, I'm going to do the wrong thing. He says my whole journey. But he still chose to spit speak to GRS. And to deal with that situation. Don't worry, just believe. And then, and then you come back into the New Testament where you mentioned about unbelief. And that text comes spring straight to my spirit very clearly where we're what we have is a data game at that again, with his son has got caught by this, this unclean spirit and, and Jesus is in town and, and he goes to him and he cries in prayer. And he says please, please, he cries out. Yeah. And Jesus says, If you believe all things are possible, all things are possible. And he said, I don't believe he cries out, but then he goes, Help my unbelief. Yeah. So yeah. So what we got to understand that all the guys and gals are listening, I might be a believer in God. And I might have moments of fear for unbelief. But Jesus sees that because he addresses that very clearly with Jairus, the dad of the daughter and the dad of the son in the New Testament, and he addresses that. The first thing he says to the disciples, don't fear, don't be afraid.

Simon Pinchbeck:

So to sort of the moral odor, or the key behind that story is we take our unbelief to Jesus Christ. Yeah, we take it to him. So what in the natural Yeah, what we want to do is control that situation.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Exactly. We want to control that.

Simon Pinchbeck:

So we want to step out the shield of Jesus and we want to reach out and we want to control that and ourselves with Jesus say, yes, believe just believe stay in the shield say under under the shield follow me just believe, just in that situation. Just Just sewing to me more just coming to me more. Just lean on me more, just

Reverend Ben Cooper:

hold on anymore. lean in. You just gotta lean into Christ like he's talking about the palm tree in the tree just leans in, let just lean in just lean into Christ learn to lean in as the disciple did sitting around. When they had the pasta when they had the coda kumea when they're sitting around with Christ, in that in that place. And they took when they broke bread together, it says, and the disciple leaned into Jesus. Yeah, I've got to learn to lean in. Come off me on faith. Do not lean on your own understanding, but in all your ways.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Listen, I heard a story about a guy who was at a recovery vehicle recovery truck out in Norfolk somewhere and cars are always going off the road over there in the field. So he was a quite busy, he was a believer, a big believer love the law. And he got a call late one evening, that car had come off the road into a field. So me and a couple of guys jumped in the tow truck, and they went out there when I got there. I looked and the car had gone further in the field, then then they fought and then got the right length of chain. So it was going to be too dark if they went all the way back to get the right chain. And they couldn't leave the car there because it would get vandalized and wrecked. So the guy the the owner was a believer and the fella said what we're going to do, he said, Don't worry, well, there'll be a chain come along. And he prayed. And a couple of minutes later, a flat back lorry came round the corner to corner too sharp, the flat back or the back spill down and this chain fell off. And the guy says there's a chain let's do the job. Wow, faith like that's faithful and prayer like that.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

That takes some doing does

Simon Pinchbeck:

take some doing it

Reverend Ben Cooper:

takes some doing because you are going the opposite to your natural perception. So the chain wasn't there. Yeah, they could see the chain so their eyes are clearly again. We cannot do this without this other link. No Christ is the link in the chain. That's it. He is the link he is the way but to get myself in but now we got to be careful here because then We enter, or we could enter into the name of inclimate. gospel.

Simon Pinchbeck:

Yeah, we could do. Yeah. Yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Now that is completely different to what we're talking about. Now, raw faith is trusting in Jesus and Jesus, that he is everything that I need who sort of down? So yeah, so I do believe that the church in the UK is being challenged like never before. And what the challenge is, is just belief. And just believe

Simon Pinchbeck:

it, take that step of faith, jump out the boat, take that step of faith, take the leap, do not, do not sit there. take that step. And, and it's a step of absolute communication with Jesus Christ. Yeah. Absolute dedication and obedience and submission to Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's where this, that's where the five will come from. And I'll remember this the story of the little, little girl who love to play the piano. And this great pianist was coming to town and the father book tickets because he wanted to take his daughter to see this pianist. And, and so they get to the auditorium. And the little girl sees a piano and she breaks free of a father runs down er, jumps onto the stage, and starts to play on a piano and she plays chopsticks. You know, just on this big piano, she's oblivious to whatever happens. And then a scraped penis comes out, and she's still playing chopsticks. And all the crowd go mad, a clap in the pianist and penis sees a little girl and she looks up and he says, keep on playing. Wow, keep on playing, keep on playing. And he sits down beside her. And he plays the most amazing, amazing Piano Concerto on the back of what Sean's do back or what she's doing. And the crowd go berserk at the end. That's Jay Z. And the key today is we take a step forward, a leap of faith I take a step forward. Yeah, and then Jesus will come in but we sit on our backsides doing absolutely nothing watching YouTube all day, then a lot gonna happen there

Reverend Ben Cooper:

ain't gonna let you stay cuz a leaf. Now that it's blind as well, isn't it? Brian? I don't know. So that might be saying, right. I don't know where the finance is going to come from. I don't know where the next job opportunity is coming from. I don't know how I'm going to get on this healing situation. I've got issues with the kids is just going God you are going to do it. And those you will do this

Simon Pinchbeck:

famous words in Luke in the garden. We've said it before, not my will but your will be done.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Now, there's there's a desert. There's a conversation that they're sitting around as a whole series.

Simon Pinchbeck:

We could we could go into that forever but but I'm being at peace with whatever the outcome is.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Can I just say something on that garden? Because you've mentioned that there are many people now in the garden have guessed 70 and they've got three tacked on the end of their life that are asleep in their situation. It's just you and God is just human God. Don't look at the ones that are snoring in your life. Just focus on the will of the Father just seek His voice. You will have the snores around you. You'll have the one that hangers on you know

Simon Pinchbeck:

yes yeah you'll love the people that the people that own the naysayers

Reverend Ben Cooper:

the naysayers, but if you're in the garden, if you're in the garden of guests, Emilie sweat and tears and droplets of blood. Keep talking to God

Simon Pinchbeck:

and and just be content and at peace. Yeah, the result of what comes out. Come

Reverend Ben Cooper:

on Jesus. It's a great place

Simon Pinchbeck:

because a great place to be home right place to home.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

There's hope in the garden of guest seminar. Yeah. Because Because I'm in the father's garden and the father's I'm in the olive grove. I'm in the father's arms and what happens in an olive grove. What do you do to get oil to flow? The impressive impressive? Yeah, so I might be in the garden. I'm on depression I might be under pressure

Simon Pinchbeck:

but I'm content with the farm as well.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Because the all of anointing is going to flow from him. Yeah. You know there is power in God. So wherever you are around the globe, wherever you're listening, you know I know we have a bit of banter and we laugh and joke and that but you know what? We love Jesus. Yeah, totally.

Simon Pinchbeck:

We love Christ. We are all for Christ. We there is always hope if in the garden of guests seminar if you're taking that leap of faith jumping out of the boat and you're starting to learn to walk on water, staples before you Opie's before you stay in the will stay in the will, the will of the Father stay in their will and and just keep on Sewing in To the Word of God keep on building that relationship with the Father for Jesus Christ come along. And what may look like a problem now in six months time? Yeah, maybe something completely different.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

I want to cry. Yeah, actually, I can feel my eyes. Why not? Because I'll come face tomorrow. Yeah. Because I know he lifts my Redeemer. Mark God Mark King. There is no garden experience. too big for God. There is no Goliath too big. There is no debt too high. There is no Jericho too big or wide now, but it comes to obedience,

Simon Pinchbeck:

obedience with him.

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Obedience, because that's where hope is. In his Son,

Simon Pinchbeck:

Jesus Christ,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

Simon. Yeah, where there were there

Simon Pinchbeck:

isn't really, I don't know where you are you listening to this around around the world. And you know, maybe you're, maybe you're in a position and now that you think there's no hope. And maybe you don't know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. But if you want to know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, as we said before, you don't have to be in a church. You don't have to be in a Bible school. You don't have to even own a Bible. You can just like a thief on the cross. You can you can make that commitment right now by just saying a little prayer, believe in it in your heart. So this is the prayer. Heavenly Father, Lord, forgive me for anything I've done wrong. Forgive me for unbelief, that that's going on in my life right

Reverend Ben Cooper:

now.

Simon Pinchbeck:

I totally turn away from that and submit totally and accept your Son, Jesus Christ, into my life to be my lord and savior from this day forward. Lord, walk with me, be with me. I submit to you now, in Jesus mighty name. Amen. We believe that if you said that prayer, then then you're you've been born again into the kingdom of God, you're a new creation. And the old man is is gone away. And we've spoke about that before. If you want to learn more about that, look into the podcasts that we've done before. And if you want to get in touch with us, please get in touch with Ben at alien Swanley or Mia real man for Christ. Look on the YouTube and get in touch him. And we'll walk with you and we'll talk with you more about about any questions or any thing arising from this. So Ben, never great day in the hunger truth, man. Yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper:

thank you Simon. You know what we are blessed to have you come over all the way over you know from sunny better dome six, we thank you so much for joining in with us. We

Simon Pinchbeck:

know what's worth the five quid a word

Reverend Ben Cooper:

might be on the drive. We don't know. But you know, have you with us this morning? You've been listening to great mate. Yes, Simon Pinchbeck and myself crazy Reverend Ben Cooper, my god bless you and strengthen you but never give up. Hope never give up. I hope Yes. Amen.

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